Hidden cost of importing from outside the EU

Georgia

As part of my ongoing search for decent clasps I've just bought some from the USA. My first purchase of $35 USD worth went ok with A Grain of Sand, so I sent off second order for $65 USD, including some really nice vintage clasps.

I knew this would take me over the £18 duty free limit and that I might have to pay VAT, but what I didn't know is that the UK post office charges a whopping £8 service charge to collect the VAT. The result was that I paid £5.25 VAT and the £8 on top.

Thankfully I've now found an EU supplier (see the thread in Help) but the GPO service charge is little short of daylight robbery!

If you do want to order anything on the internet from outside the EU I'd recommend staying within the duty free limit or at least assessing if these hidden costs still make the purchase worthwhile.

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but it doesn't specify the post office charge.
kind regards

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Georgia

daisybell · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject:

I think if you use a different shipping agent in the country of origin, especially one of the big global shipping companies like UPS, then they can add on any taxes and duties payable when they charge you for shipping. That way you don't get any surcharges when it comes into the UK because the shipping company deals with it all together. I don't know how common it is for retailers to do this, but it's probably worth finding out if they can.

But if it's the USPS or other domestic postal service, then the delivery agent in the UK has to do the administration and pay the taxes. For which they charge you a hefty premium.

pollie · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject:

and of cors why we get together still have duties to pay but the savings ae worth it arent they girls
nudge nudge-start working on your lists for next month then you will get your goodies in time to make xmas xtuff Heart

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Stones are the only thing man takes from the earth and makes more beautiful.

Georgia · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject:

No, Grain of sand only use USPS.

And no, Polly, I'm not sure it is worth it when I get such an undeclared surcharge - I knew about the VAT and duty but the post office card said they would charge £1 admin, It was only when I got to the sorting office that there was a poster that said it was now £8. It left rather a nasty taste in my mouth and if it had been a private trader acting like that I'd have reported them to trading standards.

I'd rather find EU suppliers and at least I'm giving them my trade so they stay in business.

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Georgia

MarkV · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject:

Georgia, Thanks for your support of EU (incl. UK) suppliers.

It is quite a tough market for us UK suppliers at the moment and I believe you will see the number of suppliers shrinking over the coming months and years as things get even tougher. There are already some changes happening with some well known companies closing down, local bead shops closing, etc and I think this is just the beginning.

We all know that it is 'cheaper' to buy from Hong Kong, China, USA, etc but that is what us suppliers do and most of us buy in bulk, with discounts, & we understand how much we are going to be charged for VAT, Duty, Shipping, etc. Our orders run in £1,000s of pounds and even £10,000's pounds to enable us to get the best possible price for the best quality, EU conforming goods.

As a UK supplier I know how difficult it is to stock everything and anything a beader might want but I am always happy to try and get something if there is enough call for an item. So before rushing off to the far east for a single fancy catch why not ask us UK suppliers and let us see if we can help you - at the end of the day we might just be cheaper than you doing it yourself and we take care of all the hassle that comes with ordering abroad too!

Support UK Suppliers after all this is UK Beaders isn't it?

I'll get off my soap box now... Hope I haven't upset anyone, but my livelihood and my families future is at stake here! Wink

MarkV

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ejralph · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject:

MarkV wrote:

Georgia, Thanks for your support of EU (incl. UK) suppliers.

It is quite a tough market for us UK suppliers at the moment and I believe you will see the number of suppliers shrinking over the coming months and years as things get even tougher. There are already some changes happening with some well known companies closing down, local bead shops closing, etc and I think this is just the beginning.

We all know that it is 'cheaper' to buy from Hong Kong, China, USA, etc but that is what us suppliers do and most of us buy in bulk, with discounts, & we understand how much we are going to be charged for VAT, Duty, Shipping, etc. Our orders run in £1,000s of pounds and even £10,000's pounds to enable us to get the best possible price for the best quality, EU conforming goods.

As a UK supplier I know how difficult it is to stock everything and anything a beader might want but I am always happy to try and get something if there is enough call for an item. So before rushing off to the far east for a single fancy catch why not ask us UK suppliers and let us see if we can help you - at the end of the day we might just be cheaper than you doing it yourself and we take care of all the hassle that comes with ordering abroad too!

Support UK Suppliers after all this is UK Beaders isn't it?

I'll get off my soap box now... Hope I haven't upset anyone, but my livelihood and my families future is at stake here! Wink

MarkV

You've not upset me Mark. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Things are getting tougher for all bead businesses in the UK. I rather feel we will soon see a return to the "bad" old days where customers had no choice BUT to buy from the US to get unique bead items.

I find it a sad irony that the bead community was crying out for so long to be able to find great beads and findings here in the UK. Yet now they can, so many are choosing to shop overseas.

Don't get me wrong - I do understand why. Everyone likes to save money after all. And business is business so sellers in the UK will have to adapt or die out. I just fear more will die out than be able to adapt when it comes to the world of beads.

A year from now, I don't think consumers will be able to find half the unique beads and findings here at "home" that they can right now. So customers will need to get their head around VAT, import duties, admin fees etc. Because we are returning, I fear, to those days where you had to go abroad to get the unusual items.

Even the UK bead magazines that jumped to take our advertising money are more concerned now with pushing American companies that UK ones.

So don't get off the soapbox Mark. Just budge over a bit and pass the cake eh? Cos I am coming up Mr. Green

Emma

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lebeado · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject:

Interesting indeed...Emma can you clarify 'adapt or die out'? Do you mean price wise so as to be more competitive with overseas, or range of stock?

Jo
Daisy

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Scotland's biggest bead shops, with branches in Haddington and Edinburgh.

ejralph · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject:

lebeado wrote:

Interesting indeed...Emma can you clarify 'adapt or die out'? Do you mean price wise so as to be more competitive with overseas, or range of stock?

Jo
Daisy

Sadly I mean't neither actually Jo.

As you know probably better than most, pricing is so often determined by a business' actual costs and overheads. I don't really know any busiess these days that prices their products at anything other than the lowest they can afford to sell them at. It would be pretty hard for most companies to shave their prices down when most have been shaved as far as they can go already.

It is just a simple fact that bead companies here for the most part will be unlikely to be able to match prices of the big bead companies state-side. For one thing they have less buying power and also costs of importing goods to the UK are higher, our business and living costs are among the highest in the world.

Range of stock - well again, it is hard to compete with the hugh warehouse sellers overseas. I think bit-by-bit bead companies in the UK have done a great job of collectively raising the bar and across the board you can get so many different things here now. But it is difficult for any one companie in the UK to have the breadth of stock that some of the larger US companies have. And that will only become increasingly harder.

So when I said "adapt or die" I meant adapt into a different business altogether, maybe finding a new market that is a little easier to maintain. Or die out as in close down.

I am not meaning to sound too gloom and doom here though! I think one thing to come from the beading boom in the UK is that many, many companies have started up.

When I was a kid buying beads, there were 3 companies. And 2 of them were not all that ROTFL

So it is inevitable that not every bead business or bead shop out there in the UK would still be around 2 or 3 years from now. Just like not every rubber stamping company has survived now the hige craze for that has started to ebb away.

But I do forsee the UK bead sellers as a whole will be up for tough times and I do think that because of that there will be less choice eventually for the consumer again.

Simply because to get a range of stock requires capital. The more stock you want to sell, the more capital you need to invest. And when customers are going overseas increasingly to buy their supplies it is a brave company indeed that will invest that money - the smaller independant bead shops and bead businesses will have a very tough time making it.

Even just a few years ago, the majority of beaders didn't feel comfortable purchasing from overseas at all. Now it is almost the norm for everyone.

Time will tell of course. I could be predicting utter nonsense and we will all look back at these posts in a few years and laugh our butts off. I really, really hope that is the case. I just don't think it is.

Emma

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nemea · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:47 am Post subject:

This reminds me Emma of another thread where we were discussing the use of "Made in Britain" (or something along these lines) stickers for your products. Apologies if I don't remember the details quite right.

How about taking this a step further and producing a logo for our websites (and I'm talking about the jewellery makers) that says "ukbeaders support uksuppliers" or something more catchy! Mr. Green

. This could be linked to a short explanation of what this is about. We'll need KK's permission of course but I'd be proud to display that.

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pollie · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:04 am Post subject:

i do the majority of my shopping in the uk-occasionall singapore and x2 a year a group shop in the usa-there are things i cant get here and the price saving is high-i am in the same position as most everyone else-on a fixed limited income and i shop for value before anything else
o know some people believe in only shop uk-i cant afford that and i also believe in free choice Heart

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pollie
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Stones are the only thing man takes from the earth and makes more beautiful.

lebeado · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:14 am Post subject:

Yes, I'm with you now Emma. I must agree, I think we'll be seeing some small businesses going under in the next couple of years, and if I hadn't already opened two shops, I'd be seriously wondering if it was a good idea given today's financial climate. I wouldn't be encouraging anyone to open a bead shop today unless they could offer something totally unique.

My overheads are massive - and my prices are low. And the main reason for the low prices is to be competitive, but it's a vicious circle. Jewellery makers are extremely price conscious and rightly so. I never wanted to be known as 'expensive' because customers will vote with their feet and shop elsewhere. So my margins have been shaved to the bare minimum. I've adapted my business by opening on-line which technically turns you into a global company. But who wants to shop on-line from a UK supplier when the exchange rate is so awful?

Can I second Mark by saying that as it's us that's spending the scary mega-bucks (and incurring the even more scary VAT, import, disbursement and surcharges), it's definitely worth asking your local bead shop if they can get something in for you; in most cases the answer will be yes.

A great thread, let's hear the opinions of some buyers out there?

Jo
Daisy

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Scotland's biggest bead shops, with branches in Haddington and Edinburgh.

ejralph · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:35 am Post subject:

nemea wrote:

This reminds me Emma of another thread where we were discussing the use of "Made in Britain" (or something along these lines) stickers for your products. Apologies if I don't remember the details quite right.

How about taking this a step further and producing a logo for our websites (and I'm talking about the jewellery makers) that says "ukbeaders support uksuppliers" or something more catchy! Mr. Green

. This could be linked to a short explanation of what this is about. We'll need KK's permission of course but I'd be proud to display that.

I think that previous thread proved more than anything that this is a very raw and emotive subject area, apt to misunderstandings and miscomprehensions.

After all, there is the one stance that says it is good to buy British. It is good for our economy and because we are all existing IN this same enviroment ultimately, if it becomes stale or sick, that is not good for anyone. This is the Churchillian stance against the global bead sellers of "we will fight them on ebay, we will fight them on the internet and in the high street...we will never surrender!"

It is a philosphy that makes a lot of sense in many ways. But to some ears it inevitably sounds dated and overly nationalistic in what is now considered a "global village"

The other side of the coin of course is that the consumer votes with her feet. She is of course price concious and will always be attracted to lower prices and more choice if that is on offer. Right now because of the exchange rate, in bead terms - that IS on offer with some of the bead warehouse companies in the US.

Can they offer the same custoner service - nope, often not. But does that actually matter? Often not. And we cannot expect customers to shore up our businesses out of loyalty. That is just unrealistic, however much it pains me to say it!

I think as with all things economic, the pendulum swings eventually settle down and an equilibrium is found. The exchange rate may change for instance, or a certain percentage of UK shops / online stores will close, leaving more punters for those that remain. More people may come to beading etc etc etc.

So it will all come out in the wash eventually. Just as every other market that has gone through an upheaval eventually finds its level. And if the industry is destined to remain, it will in one form or other and it will be survival of the fittest as to who stays where.

Some industries are not destined to remain. Slavery, fox hunting, electric typewriters - all sorts of industries literally die out (and in the case of the first too, rightly so. Although I have nowt against leccy typewriters)

Beads won't though. It is such an ancient industry that someone will always be buying beads, someone will always be selling them. Just how many in the UK who will be able to compete is anyone's guess right now.

Established companies are likey to remain of course, those newer companies with maybe less weight behind them possibly not. And I don't think there is much we can do about that. It is a natural process, even if we tried to promote supporting UK sellers (which I support wholeheartedly from my emotional perspective of course)

Just when you read a bead mag these days, the number of UK bead sellers is staggering. Even with the best loyalty in the world, I just cannot forsee all of the being around in 5 years time.

I still think your idea is a good one though and I see no harm really in at least trying to start a movement in that direction. Simply because it makes people think and question their spending patterns.

I am as swung by price as the next person. But I have noticed that even I am not always. I do actually like for certain things to support local businesses and UK companies. SOme things I also find actually are not that much of a saving from overseas once you factor in your time as well.

And it could be that a gentle campaign that asks people to question rather than pointing any fingers or expliciting saying that any one thing is "bad" could be a good thing for everyone?

Emma

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catherine-emma · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:44 am Post subject:

I only buy one design of a Swarovski crystal from the US - believe me it was only after a thorough trawl of UK and European sites that led me there, and I must admit I would much rather buy from the UK. The £8 charge from the Post Office is cheeky - but unfortunately they now have commercial pressures on them to act more like a private company than a public service, which in the past they have been.

With the £ sinking against the $ it is not as cheap anyway. I think we are heading for a belt tightening time where everyone has to be more commercially aware Sad

best regards
catherine-emma

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ejralph · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:09 am Post subject:

pollie wrote:

i do the majority of my shopping in the uk-occasionall singapore and x2 a year a group shop in the usa-there are things i cant get here and the price saving is high-i am in the same position as most everyone else-on a fixed limited income and i shop for value before anything else
o know some people believe in only shop uk-i cant afford that and i also believe in free choice Heart

Thanks for giving your perspective Pollie. It is so important for UK businesses to hear from the buyers themselves.

I think you really do sum up today's bead buyer. And it is not the buyers job really to care about keeping any certain business afloat.

But I think of it rather like this - as buyers it is still better to be aware of certain situations.

Just like in lampwork beads, many beadmakers strive to ensure that the customer is educated. We don't care if the customer buys quality lampwork or unannealed chinese factory beads. Just so long as she knows what she is buying, what she can expect from those beads and no-one is hoodwinked.

I think maybe the same could be said in the beadmaket in general. As much as UK companies would love all customers to shop with us and never go elsewhere, we know that won't happen.

I think what would like though is that customers do at least know that longer term this will have an impact on the market as a whole and to at least be aware of that.

Time and again I have seen posts on bead forums where beaders are upset that they can't find such and such in the UK. But it is a double-edged sword for the bead companies too. They want to provide better stock, better prices and top notch service too but can only do so when there are punters through the doors.

All we can do as sellers is to thank all of you for the times you do shop in the UK and to thank you for keeping these issues in mind. No-one can expect to have all of your business. Your business is something to be valued and we as UK businesses have to EARN that from you, not sulk and pout and demand it. I hope that Mark's original post and my follow up didn't come across like that. Because I am sure neither of us meant that, but sometimes in the debates on things like this, stuff can sometimes come out wrong.

Education is the key though in all these things. As jewellery sellers many of you face a similar issue. How many times have I seen jewellery designers upset because the "juried" craft fair they were at allowed factory-made import jewellery in on the table next to them?

And we all ooh and ah and sympathise and tell them "well don't worry - your work is better than that" or "you are chasing different markets" and all that stuff. But at the end of the day that junk jewellery stall next door HAS often made an impact on the designers sales that day and they know it.

It is all part of the economic realities of business life and as sellers we shouldn't make it part of the customers "problem". It is not the customers problem. It just something that maybe some customers would like take into consideration some of time.

It is a tricky subject.

I too would love to hear more buyers views on this, although not in any sense of them feeling they have to justify themselves, because you don't.

Emma Daisy

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MarkV · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:34 am Post subject:

Quote:

All we can do as sellers is to thank all of you for the times you do shop in the UK and to thank you for keeping these issues in mind. No-one can expect to have all of your business. Your business is something to be valued and we as UK businesses have to EARN that from you, not sulk and pout and demand it. I hope that Mark's original post and my follow up didn't come across like that. Because I am sure neither of us meant that, but sometimes in the debates on things like this, stuff can sometimes come out wrong.

Totally agree with everything you have replied with and I also want to thank everyone who is pro UK suppliers, and don't get me wrong I do understand why some of you have to go across the water to buy supplies from time to time..

I have wondered about setting up a UK bead sellers organisation, I suppose like the BWG but specifically for traders. I am not sure how to really but it would be good for us to gather information and I think this would ultimately help the sellers and purchasers alike. Many of us sellers do discuss issues at bead fairs when we meet but a more formal solution would be interesting.

MarkV

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